New Japanese Units

[^Tomisama^]

Something we haven’t done yet is fight without monks, guns, or ninjas, as TMS reminded that we should to be correct to the era (can’t find the post). I think this would help in "better" determining correct Mongol troop strengths.

This does bring back another issue though. Without the above, the Japanese unit choices are looking rather lean in comparison to the new kids on the map. We will need the katana sams, and ashi archers, and whatever else you all were thinking about, to get this whole thing tuned right.

Just adding this reminder, although you may not need it

[^Glyndwr^]

Is this the post you are referring to...
http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1956552&postcount=26

[^HUN^]

Well yes, even back in Mongol Invasion the unit roster was limited. Teppos were replaced by crossbows and I am of the opinion that the poor Japanese unit choice was as much to blame for the lack of interest in Mongol battles as the balance, probably more so IMO. Historical accuracy would also mean losing Naginata cav and Nodachi.

I would rather opt for a simple add-on than introduce different eras, it will be less complicated. The introduction of just Ashi archers and Katana Samurai to the current Japanese roster will give players so many new options and I expect there will be a natural tendency to reduce the number of Teppos for more reliability.

Ninja: 900 koku.

If it were my choice, I'd scrap this unit altogether.

[^Tomisama^]

If it were my choice, I'd scrap this unit altogether.

Me too!

Two Era Periods:
Genko - The Mongol Invasions (1274 and 1281)
Sengoku Jidai - The Country at War (1477-1600)

Yup, No-dachi would have to go for Genko.
No-dachi - ‘Field Sword’; an extremely large two-handed sword fairly popular in the 15th and 16th Centuries, essentially an over-sized TACHI. Surviving examples from the Muromachi Period include no-dachis almost 6 feet long. Samurai are said to have brought them to Korea (1593) in some number to use as a psychological weapon against Korean soldiers.

But Naginata should be able to stay, unless you are just takling about getting rid the added cavalry unit (probably are)?
Naginata - A mid-sized pole-arm topped with a curving blade popular in the Heian Period. Originally the weapon of a foot soldier, the naginata came to be known as the favored weapon of the warrior monks (SOHEI) and women. The naginata was not otherwise in general use by the 16th Century.
Heian Period - 794-1192.

http://www.samurai-archives.com/index.html

[^Glyndwr^]

An excellent link ^Kazemoto^

[^HUN^]

Yes, you thought right I was referring to the Naginata Cav. The infantry version should remain, of course. It was however, largely superseded by the Yari by the time of Sengoku Jidai. The fact that it became the weapon of choice for women (still is) speaks volumes for its efficiency. I've seen some of these weapons and I think I would prefer to be confronted by a spear than one of these.

Korea proved a tough nut to crack. Though subjugated by the Mongols, it was more due to ineptitude of governing powers than military defeat, with the Mongols hitting many a stale mate against incredibly resilient defence. Likewise, the Koreans proved to be a major stumbling block and a blot on the otherwise exemplary military achievements of Toyotomi Hideyoshi.

Should Ninjas go? Anyone here see the merit of keeping them?

[barocca]

4x traditional Yari Sam units bifs (3 uniforms)

8x traditional Weapons
I Propose :=>>
Kanabo = Excellent attack, lousy defence, armour piercing, extra morale for user - OR all infantry afraid of!
cost of Kanabo??? - # of men??)

Yari - Tsuki Nari (moon spear) = standard yari stats (give to monks only ??)
Yari - KataKama = standard yari stats (give to rebels only ??)
Yari - Yajiri (spade spear) = +1 mellee (above standard yari stats) +100k
Yari - Bishamori (moon axe) = armour pierce (above standard yari stats) +100k
Yari - Kagi (hook) = +1 cav att/def (above standard yari stats) +100k
Yari - Jumonji = standard yari stats
Naginata = +2 mellee, -2 armour, +1 cav att/def, (on Orig Nagi Stats), ord yarisam morale +100k (yarisam cost)



Orginal Naginata Samurai = +2 mellee, armour piercing = same price ???

[barocca]

.


suggested stats for ashigaru archers please



also are the above yari samurai stats acceptable? (all i need to do is add weapon arrays and edit/write actions)
(rember 8 "Samurai" units based on Yari BIF)

ALSO clothing options for Yari Bif are
Brown uniform (standard STW colour)
Dark secondary colour uniform
Bright secondary colour uniform

I CAN put up to six weapons in each yari bif, but i will have to shorten the long polearms to do so,
do you want me to make executive decisions regarding colouring of weapons and clothing??
remembering some of the long polearms will be available to exclusive factions (monks and rebels) but will have standard yari samurai stats


ALSO suggested stats for Katana Samurai (who are ready to go)
they are a darker version of the test version of no-dachi
you will recall all nodachi have reverted to red clothing


.

[^HUN^]

Kanabo...
walk...6
run...10
charge...12
ch/bonus...6
attack....6
defend....0
armour....3
morale...10

Katana Samurai...
w...6
r...10
ch...12
ch/b...3
att...5
def...2
arm...4
mor...8

These were the suggested stats when the units were first discussed, with the Kanabo being a 30 man unit.
Possibly 900 and 1100 koku? My thoughts are that smaller units are not popular and if you apply a high cost I think they would be overlooked. YIHC are already noticeable in their absence from Mongol armies and it is surely their 1300 price tag that is the cause. Another reason to test this mod further ..... Not enough variety seen among Mongol armies.
On the basis that we want to see all units being used, I would opt for 60 men in the Kanabo unit and a cost of 1100 or 1200.
Katana would fit into 900 slot.

Ashi archers same stats as Korean archers?

Yari sound fine, I look forward to seeing those.

[barocca]

ashi archers (as dexcribed elsewhere) are done and will be added,
the only thing annoying me is they have faint beards and first glance it is hard to tell they are wearing a hood, not weird ugly hair,

but i think they'll be fine.

next is get the Katana Samurai into place,

then the Yari Sams Types. (REBEL faction samurai will be going into the Honganji Faction for the moment)



then we add warrior monk variants.
we have secondary faction coloured monks (for factions EXCEPT MORI)
cream coloured monks (for honganji)
grey coloured monks
AND LASTLY primary faction coloured monks, with secondary faction coloured hoods for MORI

do you think we could (for each faction) have a specialist unit, with a minor bonus (equiv to 1 valour point)
FOR EXAMPLE could we allow Mori/Honganji Monks to have +1 att +1 def and +2 morale without unbalancing MP?? or perhaps give them an invisible sheild for mellee (+1) and +2 morale? (thus if hit from flank = no shield bonus) OR 50 koku cheaper??? (or a bonus stat/s AND 50 koku cheaper????)
???
as in +2 morale, a melee (invis) +1 shield and 50 koku cheaper???)


the real idea being to make each faction slightly different to play, not a huge difference, just to make them a little different instead of clones?

[^HUN^]

I understand the principle of the idea but I'm not sure it will be so easy to implement for MP, especially with monks. I think we would soon see all Japanese players taking Mori if their monks were better than others.
Applied to Sengoku Jidai, the idea is good as it gives each faction specific strengths. Against the Mongols, players would find the best Japanese faction to counter.

If we take lesser units, say those that are 400 koku and under and apply a price reduction of 50 or even 100 koku to each faction specific unit, that might work.

[barocca]

ok,
stepping aside from truly unique units for factions,

here are my revised proposals for the new yari based samurai

Code:


Yari Samurai (Jumonji) = 400k  1/0/2/3/6/ ap(no) +5(att)/+5(def)
KataKama (Katakama)    = 400k  1/0/2/3/6/ ap(no) +5(att)/+5(def) (rebels or 1/2 factions ??)
TsukiNari (moon spear) = 400k  1/0/2/3/6/ ap(no) +5(att)/+5(def) (give to Hoganji only ??)

Bishamori (moon axe)  = 500k  1/0/2/3/6/ ap(yes)+4(att)/+4(def)
Yajiri (spade spear)  = 500k  1/1/2/3/6/ ap(no) +5(att)/+5(def)
Kagi (hook)           = 500k  1/0/2/3/6/ ap(no) +6(att)/+6(def)

Kanabo (metal staff)  = 1100k 6/6/0/3/10 ap(yes) +0(att)/+0(def)

Naginata Kihonyo        = 600k  2/3/5/2/6/ ap(yes) +1(att)/+2(def)

Naginata (regular)      = 800k  2/1/7/4/8/ ap(yes) +0(att)/+1(def) *(current Naginata - will remain)

for 200 koku difference each way between yari sam and naginata (they are a half way unit)
Kihonyo vs Naginata +0 charge +2 mellee, -2 defence, -2 armour, -2 morale, +1cav-att, +1cav-def
Kihonyo vs Yarisams +1 charge +3 mellee, +3 defence, -1 armour, +0 morale, -4cav-att, -3cav-def (lose rank bonus)

ALSO remember thant Kanabo, Kihonyo and Naginata do NOT get additional rank bonuses

do the costs vs benefits look about right??

[barocca]

probable unit icons/review panel

[^HUN^]

I like those unit icons a lot.
I'm sure only playtesting will provide the relevant feedback but this is just what the Japanese need, more variety.

[barocca]

researching japanese amour and they had chain-mail!
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kusari_%28Japanese_mail_armour%29)
(http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Kusari_katabira)
looks much like the huscarle armour, so we can use that!!
i suggest for
Kanabo
Tsuki Nari (moon spear)
and perhaps one other weapon in huscarle chain armour??

[barocca]

i have finished recolouring and despeckling the knights cloaked horse and the knights armoured horse, they will display the factions primary colour.
They are destined for Conscript/Chinese Cavalry.

the handgunners bif has also been recoloured, will add a crossbow to it and shields, this will become the song infantry,
using the handgunner bif means we can, if we want, introduce fire-lances or rockets at a later stage. (both existed when the mongols conquered the chinese)

any comments/ideas?
B.

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