Re: Sam Wars/Mongol Wars Unit Discussion

[barocca]

just dont drown me in detail,
i want to get these stats settled as soon as.

we dont want mongol to be beaten easily, we dont want japanese to be beaten easily and we definaely dont want the mongols to be played the same way as the japanese.

Mongol strength needs to rest in cavalry, and their weakness in infantry.
THUS/BUT Mongol need to be able to sacrifice their cavalry strength in favour of a pure infantry mix and be comeptitive without cav, >> giving Japanese opponents a real dilemma
Japan need to go heavy on AntiCav to beat Mongol cav, but if the Mongol player has no/limited cav them a SamSpear lineup is going to be in real trouble against a pure mongol infantry army.
hence our korean swords with a javelin "bite", thunderbombers being Guards quality with armour piercing and shields, korean spearmen having a 4 rank bonus and 100 men, i think the mongol mix can work,

(dont go all exacting on getting the right number of deaths per matchup )

not having dig at the way we are going, merely i think THey try to get things too "sweet", unlike us THey have an "ideal" method of game play (being "Takeda Gun Wall") and they have rigged the stats to suit the "ideal",,
one of the most common responses from gun-wall players (when i complain) is (sic)"gunwall is historically accurate"
maybe true - but is it fun and exciting?? definately NOT.

i prefer our way much better, can we win with these troops? yes
NOW can we win with THOSE troops?? yes !! excellent, thats a balance !!!



pretty soon i want to move on to the expanded Japanese lineup, and the Honganji(monk) lineup as soon as too.
then i will come back and lineup all the SP units.

Once i know how many units i need to make, i can make the dreaded unit icons...

[^HUN^]

OK. Trying to remember what I wrote last night before it met with doom.

So far we have run tests with Mongol armies, trying to pin point and eliminate CTD. What we've not done is direct unit match up comparisons.
I say yes to Yuan inf myself, priced in the high range as I posted. This is important if choosing these units is going to restrict cav choice. The present Mongol army is still being dictated, dropping units for more expensive ones just to spend the koku. I've had to change HA for HC because of this (something I don't like) and the result is a Mongol army that isn't. At the moment a good mix of inf and a lot of melee cav are making the Mongols very non-Mongol.
The Korean Guard units are looking too strong. Both units are beating their Japanese 'equivalent'.
Korean spears are performing as they should, not good against inf at all. I'm happy with them so far.
I'll have a bit of a shuffle and look to suggest a remedy for the KG (polearm and sword)

STC should lose their 8 morale. I'd say it needs to be lower than the 6 morale of YC. I still think it is better priced at 800 though.
YILC maybe one cav too many? (MHC/YILC role a little too similar?) It is performing like YC but if it is lifted to 1000, that would affect MHC. Does MHC consistently beat YC? I'm not sure yet and I wouldn't want to see this unit substituted by YILC which would probably be the case if MHC was increased to 1100 or 1200. YIHC would also need an increase to 1300 or 1400.

I want to take a look at the units, cost and army composition, to find a way to make them typically Mongol, or typically Yuan (with Yuan inf selection)
Yuan...good inf
Korean....weak inf
If the current Korean units are competitive, you will see more like Samurai tactics than Mongol.
I've never agreed with Puzz and his 'there has to be a counter unit' approach, the result is quite dull and boring. Why does a YC HAVE to be able to catch HA? Why should the player have a simple 'Oh, HA...ok I'll just send YC after it' answer?? Countering HA can be achieved by using other units at your disposal like a unit of archers.

I'll try and post some suggestions later.

[barocca]

YILC = 1 cav too many?
we want MHC, we can lose YILC easily enough (i can relegate them to SinglePlayer)

Yuan Imperial Guard i will finish asap
- imperial xbows ??? - do we really need?
- also do we NEED song archers? we already have 2 archer classes?

YPA=Yuan Pole Arm 1000k
YPA none (samurai) w6 r8 c10 chg5 att4 def3 arm5 mor10 (SPEAR) catt2 cdef2 uncontrolled (armour pierce)
YAX=Yuan Axemen 900k
YAX none (samurai) w6 r8 c10 chg4 att3 def2 arm4 mor6 ( AXE ) catt cdef uncontrolled (armour pierce)
YSW=Yuan Swordsmen 800k
YSW none (samurai) w6 r8 c10 chg2 att3 def4 arm5 mor10 (SWORD) catt cdef uncontrolled
YSP=Yuan Spearmen 700k
YSP none (samurai) w6 r8 c10 chg5 att1 def5 arm4 mor8 (SPEAR) catt4 cdef4 uncontrolled

maybe YPole's could even be 1100 or 1200 ??

[^HUN^]

Right, I would give YILC same morale as YC and take them to 1000 koku, they are doing better than MHC.
MHC are a bit weak IMO, I'd improve their attack as they lose too often against JHC and YC (and against YILC). With better stats we can make them 1100 koku and then increase YIHC to 1300.

Korean Swords ... Either lower attack at same price or increase to 600 koku. Maybe raising to 600 would be better.

Korean Guards ... With an increase to Naginata attack, this unit would probably feel better balanced. I think we would then see them losing to monks and naginata, but taking a good few with them.

Korean Spears ... Looking good.

Yuan Infantry ... Yes we need these. I'll go and browse the suggested units. I know it's a lot of work for you, what if we add just 2 or 3 units? We need that uncertainty of army choice to add some real spice. I'll come back with some ideas.

OK, you replied mid post ....
I agree, higher price.
Yuan Guard .. 1200
Yuan Axe .. 1000
The other unit costs look OK.
We could leave out the archers.

[barocca]

will make those changes to unit costs
will try to upload a small update reflecting those changes
will TRY (but dont hope) to get Yaun Inf done today - have a LOT to do in the real world

R'as is going to try to be online for 1800GMT Saturday evening YOUR time.
I am trying to get this package tidy so i can send to him.

B.

[^Glyndwr^]

I haven't been around much this week...
Sat/Sun 1800GMT that is 1900 UK time...I'll be there

[^HUN^]

That's good news about R'as. I look forward to trying out these changes, will you be there over the weekend as well?

[^HUN^]

What we are trying to achieve in this latest version of the Mod, is a battle that is decided by tactical manoeuvre. I think we all agree on that. The extra units will offer that element of uncertainty that will add more excitement, limited units are great for balance but you also know what you expect to face. The possibility of bringing the 'wrong' army to the field, different battles, new maps, will revitalise the MP experience.

Hopefully - it certainly looks that way - the Mongol unit costs will ensure that the Mongols will perform quite differently from the Samurai. Maybe an infantry based Yuan Imperial or a more typically Mongol army and combinations of these in future team battles. From the Samurai players' point of view, facing different line ups each time it has to be great. It will make teamplay very important, I think. The Mongols have to be Mongols and not just another Japanese army.

Look forward to running this !!!! I will make maps this weekend.

[^HUN^]

.....Forgot....

Ninjas .. are we ditching them? I say replace them with Katana Samurai
Imagine the battles then. We could even consider giving Ashi's 100 men?
Any views on going in this direction? Personally I like some different sized units, it just looks more realistic.

[barocca]

ninja's i would keep
they can be very handy for a tactical battle

ashi, i would maybe up them to 80 men,
but leave 100 the realm of koreans...

I MISS SHOGUNS FOG>>> in that fog NINJA would have been devestating...
you guys remember the fog? thick, pea soup stuff, VERY intense to be stalking a human player in fog...
man I MISS IT - imagine ninja in that fog...
stalking the other player, thick fog, can barely see your own men, keep hearing clanking but cant tell where it is...suddenly your taisho is hit, your mens morale flickers, the ninja charge AAAAAIIIIIEEEEEE!!!!!!

[^Glyndwr^]

Those were the days!!! I may still have some replays in my shogun game. Will have to take a look.

[^HUN^]

ALL weather conditions were FAR superior back then...
Heavy rain...where the sky is black and visibility is bad...and you almost feel soaked through.
Dense fog...can't see much further than three blades of grass in front of your feet, every so often, a shadow, a sound.
Snow storm...thick driving snow, you can hardly look ahead never mind open your eyes.

[barocca]

i did not get to save replays because host quit too soon,
so i'll have to look through the logs, but it seems that only monks can handle guards, and with monks being so expensive and so vulnerable to missiles that a jap player cannot afford to take enough of them.
korean spears are more than a match for ashi, and even with 100 men vs 60 they should not be, perhaps morale needs a tweak ?
i think k'spears shoudl not fare so well against heavy cav either ?

defence value for guards at 6 may also be too high ?

am not game to introduce yuan yet,

japanese def needs more units mix

[^Glyndwr^]

Replays from tonights testing 16-8-2008 Mongol v Japanese

[^HUN^]

i did not get to save replays because host quit too soon,
so i'll have to look through the logs, but it seems that only monks can handle guards, and with monks being so expensive and so vulnerable to missiles that a jap player cannot afford to take enough of them.
korean spears are more than a match for ashi, and even with 100 men vs 60 they should not be, perhaps morale needs a tweak ?
i think k'spears shoudl not fare so well against heavy cav either ?

defence value for guards at 6 may also be too high ?

am not game to introduce yuan yet,

japanese def needs more units mix

Korean Guards beat Monks. A simple fix would be rename them Yuan Imperial Guards and change unit cost to 1200 koku. We already have some Yuan units and this change would totally alter things.
Korean Swords are way overpowered, I'd give them -2 defence like Nodachi.
Don't Korean Spears have the same stats as Yari Ashigaru? Maybe lose the rank bonus?
Naginata need better attack.
So far it's looking good.

[barocca]

to my mind the korean sword unit higlighted a gap in the samurai lineup,
being a sword based unit
WHICH i will add as a matter of urgency.

I LIKE THE IDEA OF RENAMING THEM
would 1200 be too expensive?

also korean units had other modifiers that i have since noticed samurai do not have,
such as armour piercing and supporting ranks

accordingly i propose the following basic changes to exisitng units
Korean Sword > rename Yuan Imperial Guard.
increase to 1200K cost, deduct 1 attack making them 1,3,4,3,5 (chg,att,def,arm,hon)
(if we make them 1200 do we need to deduct 1 att??)
(will 1200 be too expensive?)

Korean Spears drop 2 rank bonus points to basic 2 rank bonus
Korean Skirms lose 1anticav-att point - making them 0/1 att/def cav
Song Spears lose 1 rank bonus (becomes 1 rank bonus) and become 80men
Song xbow - lose 4 honour points to match ashi-xbow at -4Hon

Samurai Yari get +1 charge, 3 rank bonus and perfectly formed
(i remain convinced PrefectFormed actually helps a spear unit defendig)
(spears charging have got to be better than standing still)

Samurai Archers +1 to armour (samurai in ashi armour - i dont think so)

NoDachi +1 to armour
((currently is one) samurai, in their underwear - i dont think so, give them ashi quality at least)
(willing to accept they left some weight behind to gain move speed, but in their undies they fight? me thinks not)

Naginata +1 att, +1def cav (currently is zero), armour piercing
(naginata were heavy weapons, designed to crack open armour and cuts legs from horses)
(missed adding the proposed +2 last time round, i think +1att, armour pierce, +1def cav will be a nice balance)

Warrior Monk +1def cavalry (currently is zero), armour piercing
(see naginata reasoning above)

Ashigaru +1 charge (currently is zero), 2 rank bonus (currently is zero), 80men


commentary and proposed stats for Katana Sams please...

B.

[^HUN^]

Barocca,
Please don't rename the sword unit. The Current Korean Guard...(polearm) is the unit I was talking about..
Change from 700 koku to 1200 koku would suit its present performance against Monks etc.

Korean Swords...
By altering stats and weakening this unit, it would still be useful but not over powered.

[^Glyndwr^]

I have to agree with HUN on this.

[^Tomisama^]

Possibly have these fixes (090?) in before today’s battles?

Looking to do some recruiting

[^Glyndwr^]

As I understood it, the japanese units had been/or were balanced to get a reasonably equal gameplay. Regardless of what type of gameplay was the end result. The mongol faction was soooo weak that it was not economical for any player to use them in the game. The purpose of this team effort, was to try to balance the mongols so that they would, at least, be on a par with japanese factions.
OK, so they are now proving to be too powerful. Then let us reduce the power to bring them more in line with what we deem to be a satisfactory level. I am not a numbers cruncher so will leave that part to you but can imput ideas that may help.

This is the name change we need.......

Korean Guards beat Monks. A simple fix would be rename them Yuan Imperial Guards and change unit cost to 1200 koku. We already have some Yuan units and this change would totally alter things.
Korean Swords are way overpowered, I'd give them -2 defence like Nodachi.
Don't Korean Spears have the same stats as Yari Ashigaru? Maybe lose the rank bonus?
Naginata need better attack.
So far it's looking good.

and not this....

accordingly i propose the following basic changes to exisitng units
Korean Sword > rename Yuan Imperial Guard.
increase to 1200K cost, deduct 1 attack making them 1,3,4,3,5 (chg,att,def,arm,hon)
(if we make them 1200 do we need to deduct 1 att??)
(will 1200 be too expensive?)

Starting to put a whole lot of changes is going to make things even more complicated. (just my opinion, not intended to be criticism)

Barocca,
Please don't rename the sword unit. The Current Korean Guard...(polearm) is the unit I was talking about..
Change from 700 koku to 1200 koku would suit its present performance against Monks etc.

Korean Swords...
By altering stats and weakening this unit, it would still be useful but not over powered.

Repeated

[^HUN^]

I've edited the unit_prod file and tested various match ups. The result looks very positive.

[^Glyndwr^]

Possibly have these fixes (090?) in before today’s battles?

Looking to do some recruiting

I have installed patch 09.04 so seems to be needed for tonight.

[barocca]

why are we having this discussion across two threads

Guard Pole are not the problem
Guard Pole are Naginata in korean clothing

Guard = chg 2, att 0, def 6, arm 3, hon 5, anti-cav +2att/+2def arm-pierce
Nagi03= chg 2, att 0, def 6, arm 5, hon 8, anti-cav 0att/0def (NOarm-pierce) (0903 naginata)
Nagi04= chg 2, att 1, def 6, arm 5, hon 8 anti-cav 0att/+1def arm-pierce (0904 naginata)

there is no justice in upping Guard Pole costs to 1200

the Swords are the overpowered unit
WM's should be a partial nemesis, but not a complete one, WM's can now beat Swords but only if handled carefully.


i dont wnat to make massive changes to samurai infantry,
that will upset their effectiveness against samurai cavalry,
i am not convinced that yari samurai nbeed to be 80men in a unit.

korean spears are being tested at 100 men, as part of testing korean spears i upped ashi to 80 men to see how they fare head to head.

dont go off on a tangent on me, the samurai are balanced against the samurai, i have long thought the whole set of stats was designed to fail against gun wall tactics, the changes i made in 0904 are meant to balance the korean swords unit, and repair some long held beliefs about mistakes made in 8.0.

the only other korean unit of concern is the spears, which at 100 men may be too many men.

I do not like huge units
B.

[^HUN^]

OK, the unit discussion started here but it's moved on to 9.04 now so we'll close this one.

[^Glyndwr^]

Keep this topic open for unit discussion in general.

Each patch, ..02..03..04..is an update for testing and a post with them explains what has been changed.

Discussions about each patch can be carried out in their own topics. It will make it easier to cross reference.
Each new patch version has its own Topic Title. (09.02..09.03..09.04 and a date when a download link was posted.)

Edit: If the members think it necessary, I can move any posts in the wrong place to the correct place.

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