Samurai Warlords patch 0904 - 17 august 2008 (tiny one)

[barocca]

update 0904
update 0904 <<--link

changes as mentioned in the unit discussion thread (plus Keshig will now stay dead instead of autobury)

NOTE - ONLY tested WM's (have had no other time today)-(flat ground clear weather)
if WM get to charge and Swords DONT get to throw jav's then :: 50/50 who wins
if WM = no charge :: Swords Win
if Swords = throw javs :: Swords Win
if Swords = throw javs & WM = no charge :: CARNAGE & Swords WIN !!
(EDIT - am happy with that, reflects cost differential in my humble opinion)


Korean Sword increase to 1200K cost, deduct 1 attack making them 1,3,4,3,5 (chg,att,def,arm,hon)
Korean Spears drop 2 rank bonus points to basic 2 rank bonus
Korean Skirms lose 1anticav-att point - making them 0/1 att/def cav
Song Spears lose 1 rank bonus (becomes 1 rank bonus) and become 80men
Song xbow - lose 4 honour points to match ashi-xbow at -4Hon

Samurai Yari get +1 charge, 3 rank bonus and perfectly formed
Samurai Archers +1 to armour
NoDachi +1 to armour
Naginata +1 att, +1def cav, armour piercing
Warrior Monk +1def cavalry, armour piercing
Ashigaru +1 charge, 2 rank bonus, 80men

B.

PLEASE test carefully, trying not to go too far with changes

[^HUN^]

Wrong change of unit.
That leaves Korean Guard (polearm) at 700 which is the unit that should have been increased to 1200 for its performance.
Even at 1200, the Korean Swords are overpowered. I would leave them as Korean Swords and 600 koku and weaken them. As it is, the Mongol inf now has two units that will beat any Samurai unit with ease. Having an expensive Guard unit (polearm) and weak Korean Swords, the infantry choice is suitably weak. It will not be a weak option the way it is.

Yesterday's tests showed that the balance was not far out. Without using the problem inf (Korean Guards/Korean Swords) the battles were very close and even. A few minor tweaks would be sufficient.
We did a further test last night, where the Japanese were victorious and with an army that featured no Monks against a Mongol army that had 2 Korean Guards and 2 Korean Swords. As I said last night to R'as, the balance is not far off, a few minor tweaks but only 2 really obvious problem units.
Major change to the swords and renaming/increasing cost of Korean Guard would be my advice rather than changing everything.
Mongol cav is already more expensive than Japanese but does not overpower Japanese cav.
I don't want to see a repeat of STW/MI v1.02 where Japanese players simply choose an infantry based rush army, which is what I see happening.

[^HUN^]

****** 9.03 Unit revision Report ******
I adjusted the unit_prod file with the following....

Korean Guard....same stats, new cost of 1200. (I didn't change the name because I suspect it needs to be implemented elsewhere and I don't know where )
Korean Sword.... morale reduced to 4 melee bonus (3) def (o) arm (2) same cost 600.
Korean skirmishers....morale reduced to 3
Korean Spears.....morale reduced to 3

Yari Ashigaru ... increased to 100.
Yari Samurai ... increased to 80.
Naginata ... melee bonus raised to 3.
Nodachi ... arm increased to 2.

The result is very promising. I watched the Korean Swords losing to a depleted Naginata unit. YA are worth using and YS are suitably strengthened.

R'as was too negative, the balance was not far out. I really would like to try these changes before adding a host of changes to Samurai units. I can send you the unit_prod file to try if you like. I didn't know how to stop the Keshig from fragmenting.

[^Glyndwr^]

Can we have a decision on exactly what is going to be changed and how, before I do another install with another patch?
I am starting to get a little confused.

Edit: I've installed the 09.04 patch

[barocca]

Guard Pole are not the problem
Guard Pole are Naginata in korean clothing

Guard = chg 2, att 0, def 6, arm 3, hon 5, anti-cav +2att/+2def arm-pierce
Nagi03= chg 2, att 0, def 6, arm 5, hon 8, anti-cav 0att/0def (NOarm-pierce) (0903 naginata)
Nagi04= chg 2, att 1, def 6, arm 5, hon 8 anti-cav 0att/+1def arm-pierce (0904 naginata)

there is no justice in upping Guard Pole costs to 1200

the Swords are the overpowered unit
WM's should be a partial nemesis, but not a complete one, WM's can now beat Swords but only if handled carefully.


i dont wnat to make massive changes to samurai infantry,
that will upset their effectiveness against samurai cavalry,
i am not convinced that yari samurai nbeed to be 80men in a unit.

korean spears are being tested at 100 men, as part of testing korean spears i upped ashi to 80 men to see how they fare head to head.

[^HUN^]

Guard Pole are not the problem
Guard Pole are Naginata in korean clothing

Guard = chg 2, att 0, def 6, arm 3, hon 5, anti-cav +2att/+2def arm-pierce
Nagi03= chg 2, att 0, def 6, arm 5, hon 8, anti-cav 0att/0def (NOarm-pierce) (0903 naginata)
Nagi04= chg 2, att 1, def 6, arm 5, hon 8 anti-cav 0att/+1def arm-pierce (0904 naginata)

there is no justice in upping Guard Pole costs to 1200

They beat Naginata and against Monks it is very close. They cost 700 koku.
At 1200 koku they are in place. If the Mongol player picks a lot he is limited in other choices, which is good.

the Swords are the overpowered unit

Which is why I weakened them and still kept them at 600 koku. I thought the idea with Korean Swords was a unit that was weaker in melee than Japanese but had the javelin to help.

WM's should be a partial nemesis, but not a complete one, WM's can now beat Swords but only if handled carefully.

The Korean Guard is a match for Monks.

i dont wnat to make massive changes to samurai infantry,
that will upset their effectiveness against samurai cavalry,
i am not convinced that yari samurai nbeed to be 80men in a unit.

korean spears are being tested at 100 men, as part of testing korean spears i upped ashi to 80 men to see how they fare head to head.

I can understand the 80 men might upset Sengoku Jidai balance and I didn't want to alter any of those stats except for Naginata.
I made Yari Samurai 80 men because of the 100 men Korean Spears, rather than reduce the spears to the point where they'd bolt at the first opportunity. YS beat them with half a unit left, 100 Ashis lose but not by a lot. In the interest of Sengoku cav/spear balance and maintaining its integrity, I'd say reduce Korean Spears to 80, leave Yari Samurai at 60 but increase Yari Ashigaru to 80 also.
I'll apply those changes and report back with some results tomorrow.
That little Keshig unit is still fragmenting

[barocca]

YS struggle and Ashi lose to K'Spears in 0903 because of the MTW bonus's k'spears had and sams did not,
the 0904 i released have given some sam units those bonuses, ie. extra rank and armour pierce,


K'Swords i dont want to weaken yet, i like the idea of handing them up to Yuan,
K'Guard was a polearm unit in MI and i feel it needs to remain pole arm,
we also have kanabo and sam swords and 3 mod's of yarisams, plus ashi archers still to come,

lets see how k'swords go vs new samurai before we worry too much,


if k'G'Pole are beating WM's then Naginata should also beat WM's, the KGP are a weakened clone of naginata,
try KGP against nagi's in 0904
then try both against WM's in 0904


remember WM's can only beat swords in 0904 IF they meet 2 of 3 criteria
(no javs, k'sword dont charge, WM do charge)
1 criteia missed and it becomes a 50/50 chance,
miss 2 criteria and WM's lose. (miss 3 and you dont want to watch, it aint pretty for the WM's)
thats why i think k'swords are already balanced and am happy to promote them to yuan imperial guard

a skillfull jap player will throw his wm's at them when it is to his advantage,
a skillfull mongol player will try not to give the jap player the opportunity to do so!


lastly sam cav
i think they are mostly OK, even with the changes to sams foot (0904)
- what if we give naginata cavalry armour piercing?
THEN the darn unit might become usefull...

[^Glyndwr^]

I believe there was a problem with hosting last night. Not with the game but the fact that I had to leave in a short space of time. (things that HAD to be done)
Only one hurried game but didn't get to test the units correctly. Didn't seem to move as they usually do.
Yes, I was using 09.04 but I see from ^Kazemoto^'s post that he was on 09.03???
Could this have had some bearing on the gameplay?

if k'G'Pole are beating WM's then Naginata should also beat WM's, the KGP are a weakened clone of naginata,
try KGP against nagi's in 0904
then try both against WM's in 0904

I will test this.

[^HUN^]

YS struggle and Ashi lose to K'Spears in 0903 because of the MTW bonus's k'spears had and sams did not,
the 0904 i released have given some sam units those bonuses, ie. extra rank and armour pierce,

The adjustments I made to 9.03 YS are still at half strength after KS have routed. KS are are severely reduced after routing YA. Other inf units, WM, NI and ND beat them convincingly.

K'Swords i dont want to weaken yet, i like the idea of handing them up to Yuan,
K'Guard was a polearm unit in MI and i feel it needs to remain pole arm

What happened to the inf selection we discussed? There were Korean Guards, Korean Swords, Korean Skirmishers and Bombers. These were supposed to be weak inf. Yuan Imperial Guards (polearm) Axe and Swords were going to provide a strong inf choice. Now we have some weak and some strong, Korean Guard and Korean Sword = strong, while KS, KSk and SS are weak. This line up resembles the Japanese line up.

if k'G'Pole are beating WM's then Naginata should also beat WM's, the KGP are a weakened clone of naginata

But they don't and possibly down to the VI armour piercing feature etc. But the performance of the unit makes it a suitable 1200 koku Yuan Imperial Guard candidate.

remember WM's can only beat swords in 0904 IF they meet 2 of 3 criteria
(no javs, k'sword dont charge, WM do charge)
1 criteia missed and it becomes a 50/50 chance,
miss 2 criteria and WM's lose. (miss 3 and you dont want to watch, it aint pretty for the WM's)
thats why i think k'swords are already balanced and am happy to promote them to yuan imperial guard

In my opinion, a Yuan Imperial Guard should be armed with a polearm. If you keep the Yuan Sword unit I would simply drop the Yuan Guard unit, it couldn't be made stronger and making it weaker than swords doesn't make sense, especially when Korean Guards are strong. Weakening the Korean Sword does not relegate it to useless status, it can still beat weakened Japanese inf. The Mongols should need to weaken Japanese inf while keeping their own intact if they stand any chance of beating them.

lastly sam cav
i think they are mostly OK, even with the changes to sams foot (0904)
- what if we give naginata cavalry armour piercing?
THEN the darn unit might become usefull...

If you give NC armour piercing, the Mongols won't stand a chance. Both MHC and YIHC beat YC, NC and JHC. The length of time to do so and the efficiency (length of melee/number left) varies. Against JHC, there are hardly any MHC left and the fight lasts ages, YIHC does better but not a lot. Against YC the results are better (faster conclusion with less men lost) Against NC the result is the most favourable.
By pinning the Mongol cav with his own cav, the Japanese player has plenty of time to steamroller the Mongol inf. With armour pierce added the job will be even easier.

Naginata cav is a useful mobile unit that can be used to rout engaged inf and supporting guns/archers. It will also do well against non spear inf, but it is not the unit to use against cav.
Let's be honest, it's a fantasy load of ******* unit the fills a niche that doesn't really need filling, that between JHC and YC.

[barocca]

here is the direct 0904 stats comparison between Naginata and KGP

K G Pole = chg 2, att 0, def 6, arm 3, hon 5, anti-cav +2att/+2def arm-pierce (Lg Shield +1def)
Nagnata = chg 2, att 1, def 6, arm 5, hon 8, anti-cav 0att/+1def arm-pierce (NO SHIELD)
KG Sword= chg 1, att 3, def 4, arm 3, hon 5, anti-cav 0att/0def NOarm-pierce (Lg Shield +1def)
WarriorMo= chg 4, att 5, def 2, arm 1, hon 10, anti-cav 0att/+1def arm-pierce (NO SHIELD)

KGP, WM and Nagi all have Arrmour Pierce,
KGP vs Nagi = Nagi have +1 mellee, +2 armour and +3 valour for 800 koku (KGPe has +1 Shield)

are you testing Custom or Lan/Wan, because Custom matchups are unreliable,
it is widely suspected that the AI gets hidden bonuses to make up for its lack of intuitiveness.

PERHAPS Hun and I are both on the right track? WHAT SAY I give both KGP and KGS +1 morale/honour, rename them BOTH to Yuan###, and make 2 new "lesser" ones for the Koreans??
(no javs for korean swords tho')

Tomi wants a current beta release pretty much now,
I can rename them both to Yuan, add +1 honour and make them both @ 1100koku while we iron out the glitches with them??

i "think" i may have ironed out the Keshig fragmentation issue, i will run a couple of games using the kids workstation and my box when i get home from work.

[^Glyndwr^]

My tests are being done with LAN. Two pc's.

Tomi wants a current beta release pretty much now,
I can rename them both to Yuan, add +1 honour and make them both @ 1100koku while we iron out the glitches with them??

i "think" i may have ironed out the Keshig fragmentation issue

For my part, I would prefer to see the glitches and Keshig fragmentation sorted/corrected before releasing a new Beta. A little more time is a small price to pay. We dont need to rush things.
Nothing would be worse than a load of criticism and *we told you but you wouldn't listen* if problems magnified.

[barocca]

Tomi is already advertsing a release, and advertising this forum as well at Org.


you are correct, both guard types beat naginata (see below for why)
KGP beat wm's
KGS are about 60/40 over wm's (BUT i do not think that is ahistorical)

SO i still propose
up the guards cost to 1100k, add +1 morale, promote them to Yuan Guard (and make 2 new korean units)
ALSO Swords get a shield reduction from Large to Small
& Pole's lose the shield altogether.
AND
Naginata lose 1 ARMOUR point (that what kills them, fatigue - 4 ARM brings them down from heavy to normal)
PLUS the lost armour point goes into defence, bringing them up to 7 defence
(AND that also boosts them against ArmourPiercing by a full point)

Naginata cavalry are actually historicaly accurate, i have seen displays showing how the rider would lean forward over the horses head and "sweep" in front of the horse as well as around in mellee,

I'd like to keep them, i'd like to give them AP and see how they go,
MAYBE they can be part of the counter to the "Yuan Guard"??
you dont want NagCav to be good anti > MHC / YIHC? then we coudl give NagCav a cav attack penalty, say -2 when attacking cav for starters. (and see how they go).

[barocca]

remember we still have Afraid Of (-4 when striker fears target) (+2 target fears striker),
(which cumulates to a -2 att)
we can make 2 units afraid of EACH OTHER, meaning the penalty only applies when those two units duel.

[^Glyndwr^]

Tomi is already advertsing a release, and advertising this forum as well at Org.

Advertising is good, like at local cinema.....COMING SOON. Gets the people interested, wondering and waiting with anticipation.

[^Tomisama^]

Tomi is already advertsing a release, and advertising this forum as well at Org.

Not a “release”, just intended to respond to R’as, and then do a bit of chumming to see if any one showed.

Development is near complete, but need your help to insure all is correct in the final version.

No one did. In fact, after years of playing together I am being (effectively) shunned by others of the previous SW community (I believe it is for my involvement here). No great loss I guess (sad).

I removed the links and signature, just in case my efforts were "misunderstood" by anyone else. Not a problem, and won’t do it again.

The really sad part is that there was not a single inquiry on any level, pro or con (there has always been one or two).

[barocca]

aw heck, i'd like to give them a release to critique,
so we can see what they're thinking.

in the meantime i would not worry about lack of interest, half the problem is new graphics cards wont run medieval,
i have been tinkering with various settings, to no avail,
and while i can find a card emulator, that will allow you to run newer games on older graphics cards (3d-analyze)
i cannot seem to make that software work in reverse (which technically it should do)

have not had time to run keshig tests yet,
will try if i wake up early, or when home from work.

comments on my other proposed alterations??

[^Glyndwr^]

I removed the links and signature, just in case my efforts were "misunderstood" by anyone else. Not a problem, and won’t do it again.

The really sad part is that there was not a single inquiry on any level, pro or con (there has always been one or two).

I don't think there was any misunderstanding on our part. In fact it was a good idea.

I think it would be better to leave your sig and links on .org. Removing them would be like admitting defeat.
Why worry what other people think? You are entitled to your opinion the same as anyone else.
It isn't as if you were 'flaming' anyone or anything.
Mizu did enough advertising in many topics to proclaim Sam Wars and how it had been improved/balanced.

[^HUN^]

Right.....this is not intended to be a sermon....

I detect an element of stress and frustration creeping into the recent posts...and it's hardly surprising. Testing and retesting has always introduced a few niggles and it always will, as people have their opinions. Finding common ground can be quite hard at times, even among like minded people.
So....if my responses come over as being critical, unhelpful or otherwise, be assured..THEY ARE NOT INTENDED TO BE.
I am passionate about the inclusion of Mongols in this mod, I've waited years to see them and I want them to be competitive (in a different way) but not over powered and definitely not underpowered.
I have always maintained that they can be added and balanced, my idea of balance is not the every unit has a counter unit approach, strengths and weaknesses can be shuffled so they provide balanced gameplay. As to the discussion of Korean/Yuan infantry, I am/was still in the Korean infantry mode -because Yuan had not yet been finished- and still looking for the solution to Korean Guard and Korean Sword. I envisaged a Sword unit that was just weaker than Nodachi and a Guard that was just weaker than Naginata, at costs of 600 and 700.
With the performance of the Guard, it was obviously too good, but it fitted the Yuan Imperial Guard, which is why I suggested renaming it. With the Sword doing even better, I was more inclined to weaken it and still keep it as Korean or we would see Koreans presence reduced to just three units.
This latest development, moving both units into Yuan Imperial role and cost is a good idea. The 1100 price tag seems fair but I still think one should be cheaper than the other, 1100/1000 perhaps? Anyway, it's the best solution and it keeps the same unit type, same sprite appearance.
The replacement Korean units, can different weapons be given to the MI Korean sprites? I'm thinking unit recognition on the field. We do need both the weak/cheap and strong/expensive units though, to allow the Mongols a cav heavy or inf heavy choice.
We do need to have a good look at the cav match ups as well, is there a noticeable superiority with Mongols?
R'as was far too negative in my opinion and I think he should remember how long it took to balance the samurai. Guageing unit balance with the armies I was selecting, I could see that there were only a few tweaks needed here and there for a fair balance, (I avoided the swords) what you've suggested now should help achieve that.
Oh, and I think you can be assured it's already been looked at.

Kazemoto,
Nobody has a problem with you advertising, don't think that. Chumming the water usually gets a response, I agree and I was disappointed there was none too. We all know how much you've done for the TW community and the Warlords Campaign and mod especially. If you are being treated this way it's very childish and very sad and you don't deserve it.

We should now stop and think how much has been achieved so far, it's quite a lot. We've been limited by lack of bodies for testing so we are doing quite well I reckon. Marcus will be back soon which will help a lot.

[^Glyndwr^]

On 0904....
Has anyone noticed, with the Shimazu units, as they get killed they turn over and their outer garment changes to..BLUE..similar colour to the horse trappings??

I've run a few tests and this seems to be the only faction that it happens to.

[^Tomisama^]

Thanks for the support

Put the signature back, and link here (you never know who might be interested).

But please understand, I also caught myself in this

That is, going against what I had said about premature exposures.

I think bread crumbs are ok (leading back here), and holding up the “Mongols are coming!!!” banner (nice one B).

http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1994613&postcount=44

But any direct links to files that are still being worked on, and even maps that will be part of "the release”, should probably not be posted anywhere but here.

Until that day, that is

[barocca]

i made factions multicoloured and tried to contrast the colours to display patterns on shields (if you choose mongols)

it is worrying, i will look through the dead page and maybe pick a different corpse

btw

[^HUN^]

I noticed the screen shot on the org forum, wicked black HA ponies
Nice.
Have you had any luck with the Keshig? I changed preferred number of rows to 3, same as the Hatamoto but it still fragments.

[barocca]

Keshig are fixed, i still dont know what factor caused the glitch, but the unit's working now

i'll make some korean inf's as the week progresses

[^Glyndwr^]

I have now tested all clan factions...(tests conducted with one faction being Mongol.)
More units showing the change of colour when dead.
ODA.............orange
MORI............blue
TAKEDA........red
HOSOKAWA...green

Perhaps it may not be possible to get all colours correct.

Updated Edit:..Tested without selecting a mongol faction and the colour changes are still the same.

[barocca]

factions have 2 colours - primary/secondary , the dead colour changes are to do with the colours i selected,
IE: oda are no longer yellow/yellow, they are now yellow/orange,
the corpses are showing too much of the secondary colour, (overpowering primary)
i'll wobble thorugh the deadpage when i get time and pick corpses that show mainly primary colour


EDIT - firefox is showing forum all messed up,
every post the text is different colours, some of them unreadable,
i just made this post blue - at least then i can read the text..

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