Samurai Warlords patch 0906 - 29 august 2008

[barocca]

skipped 05

deadpages - not really happy with MHA dead - will revisit that one and redo them.

yuan swords and poles are both 1100k (lets see how that works)

korean guard have only poles at the moment, i did not have time to see if i could get a decent sword action from the koreans,
they are samurai class, and weaker than Nagi, perhaps a +1 morale boost so they to stand and die a little longer?
i would not to make them any stronger combat attributes.


Q - do we WANT korean swords???
do we want swords to be something the mongols are short on?


Koreans do not have thunder bombs - they are Yuan - i think the chinese would have more likely used than korea anyway ?
(PLUS it gives good reason to leave them as the little bit tougher than orig, that they already are)

SAMURAI_0906_29aug2008.zip (8.62 MB) << link

[^HUN^]

MHA ... Simple answer, don't allow your HA to die

Yuan units ... I'd still say 1200/1100 for Guard/Sword, but we can see how it goes.

Koreans ... Good call on all points. I'd prefer to leave out the swords. Guards and Spearmen is good and leaving Thunder Bombs to Yuan ... Spot on.
This is already playing far better than MI, with these new units ... It's what MI should have been.
Is this a fresh install job or overwrite 0904?

... And are we gonna give this a blast at the weekend?

[^Glyndwr^]

I think I would prefer to keep the Swords in.
We need some infantry choice for the mongols.

Hope 09.06 is an overwrite job, save doing another install?

[barocca]

i have a fresh unmodded copy of VI (patched to whatever was the last official patch)
i COPIED that and changed the folder name to vanilla
and then i COPIED vanilla and installed beta 8 (and changed name to VI_beta8)

now each time i do a mod i copy VI_beta8 and install the mod into that

i prefer each time i do one of these that we use fresh beta 8 install
that way there is no old clutter left over
and if i make a mistake and leave a file out it is easy to spot


i will try my damndest to be online for saturday evening UK

[^Glyndwr^]

I think each of us has a vanilla copy of MTW/VI/Patch v2.01 on our HDD's now. Will add Beta 8 to it.
Would be easier then to add the new beta's as they arrive.

I will be there Saturday and Sunday evening 20.00 BST (GMT+1)

[^HUN^]

Korean Swords......

Better left out until Korea is a stand alone faction. In 9.06 the Mongols have a very good infantry choice and an extra sword unit is going to probably offset things even disadvantaging the Samurai. Though the sword was not a primary weapon, even among Samurai, I can see its worth as a unit with regards the Japanese choice. Now a 600 koku Korean Sword is really not necessary, remember we already have Yuan Imperial Archers which are hybrid units and fairly handy in melee, especially when fighting weakened units. At 500 koku they will be able to inflict initial losses through arrows, and still add some weight in melee.

Song spears
Korean spears
Korean skirmishers
Korean guards
Yuan Imperial swords
Yuan Imperial guards

That is more than enough infantry choice. We want Mongols to be used differently from Japanese. If there is a cheap sword unit we will start seeing Mongol japanese armies...ie,
Gen
Spears
Archers
Swords
YIG
Cav.

[^Glyndwr^]

We want Mongols to be used differently from Japanese. If there is a cheap sword unit we will start seeing Mongol japanese armies

That is purely the individuals choice. You cannot start dictating what way a person plays.
Forget historical events. People like to play a certain way and if mongol play is going to be seen as cav orientated, then few will use mongols. Marcus and I know this from experience playing M2TW. 9 times out of 10..take mongols and you are dead.
Ran a test 1v1 earlier 16 units each..jap v mongol. Mongols routed from a jap inf rush with 3 cav backup after only getting 175 kills. (the jap army was my usual choice of units). I was using mongol.
I can see typical 'rush army' set ups being used when mongols are in opposition.

[^Glyndwr^]

Update..

Unit selection screen..

YIHCav shows unit cost..130 koku
.............actual cost is ..1300 koku

This would be misleading to players trying to select an army.
At first glance the Heavy Cav look very cheap.

[^HUN^]

I'm not dictating how anyone plays, don't think that. But we have already discussed this point ....Mongols not being Japanese in Mongol clothing. The Mongol unit choice decides how they are played, even the original MI was the same, the infantry was weaker than the opposition so the usual Sengoku unit for unit match/mismatch was changed. The infantry had to be protected to an extent until the Japanese units were depleted. But not only that, it was Mongol tactics rather than Japanese.
The 9.06 update has such an improved infantry choice over MI, not only from an historical viewpoint but also from the gameplay. The reduction of Korean Spears has weakened them and they break earlier than they previously did. I thought they held a tad too long before and Barocca has them just about right now IMO. Korean Guards are very nice and they are a great addition. The two Yuan units are well placed in both stats and cost and they give the Mongols a strong infantry choice. But the best thing is, it's still different from the Japanese and not a simple unit for unit clone.
The infantry heavy choice is there, the cavalry heavy choice is there.

Hatamoto-4YS-2WM-2ND-3YC-3PT-1SA.

Keshig-2HC-2YIHA-3MHA-2KA-3KS-2KG-1KSk.

Keshig-3KS-2SS-2KG-2YIG-2YIJ-3KA-1SX.

Both Mongol armies were victorious. Those were just two tests, there are loads of variations and plenty to suit anyone. M2TW and VI both suffered from the same problem ... arrows were too weak. STW archer units don't have that problem.
YIHC show as 130 because there is not enough room for the last 0.

[^HUN^]

Barocca,
The Korean Guard looks fantastic. I only ran two quick tests so far but I like the way they perform.
Looking forward to trying this out. Brilliant job, well done!!

Oh, and I like the ^^ added to the MongolWars maps too.

[barocca]

the 130koku cost for YIC is simply because the unit name is too long (phew!! - easy fix for next version)

cavalry dead - i know more about the dead image file now (even if the math is STILL nutszoid),
so i will touchup the cav dead (most are ok, there are 3 pics need adjusting, the other changes are merely index)

i will make some basic unit icons too ,
i found my "HowTo in 26017 easy steps" ... well, thats an exageration, but it is not simple as copy/edit/save, i have to translate the image through three different graphics packages from begin to end . tiring...
(FOUR packages for the review_panel image)

[barocca]

and i'll be moving all the creens to imageshack - servimage have suspended my FREE account for non-payment..
hello?? FREE = NO PAY MONEY - damn idiot scammers...

so off to imageshack they will go...

[^Glyndwr^]

Oh, and I like the ^^ added to the MongolWars maps too.

When I suggested to you about putting the ^^ in front of the two Mongolwars maps you said you wanted them left as they are to save any conflicts.

So now we have two sets of maps??? Were they renamed and added in the patch 0906??

Players downloading the mappack from the ^^Maps link will NOT have ^^Mongolwars01 and ^^Mongolwars02 but the original named Mongolwars01 and Mongolwars02.

Edit: All maps in the ^^Maps mappack download folder now have the ^^prefix

[^Glyndwr^]

and i'll be moving all the screens to imageshack - servimage have suspended my FREE account for non-payment..
hello?? FREE = NO PAY MONEY - damn idiot scammers...

so off to imageshack they will go...

I am not familiar with this upload server, it comes as an added extra with the forum server.
I understand it to be a FREE service. I have not had any requests for any payments for uploaded images.

[^HUN^]

When I suggested to you about putting the ^^ in front of the two Mongolwars maps you said you wanted them left as they are to save any conflicts.

That's right, other players already had the maps and would have conflicting version. Asking people to rename maps is not the best idea so better to just leave them. All these maps are now present in 9.06, so yes they were renamed and added. Two maps won't make any difference because anyone with 9.06 will have what they need.

[barocca]

NOT complaining about this forum,

i have been hosting them through my own Personal "FREE" account with them,

maybe i'll host them through this forum then

[barocca]

i HATE making unit icons - dealing with flippin LBM format fioles,
it s SO damn annoying to spend 3 or 4 hourrs making one, get to the end and it does not work properly..#@@#$@#$$ $@$%^^ %@% # #!@!@# ^%^$% & LBM format %#$& %$& $#&^&*^ 3@##!!!

[^HUN^]

Sounds awful.
This is no biggy, the game menu still shows beta8, are you planning to change it?

Missile test observations :
SA v KA ....out of ammo and SA @ 10 men up, who win the melee.
JT v SX ....xbows waver at 40+ men and rout not long after, even if they are doing well.
SA v YIA ....YIA out of ammo and 10 in front. SA shoot far longer to the point they are 10 men up. YIA win the melee.
Maybe because I left the YIA in 4 ranks had some effect on the firing time but the SA seemed to go twice as long. I know STW they used dead comrades arrows but the KA v SA duel was more or less out of ammo same time.
It matters not one bit .... because these results are excellent. Nailed the missile balance in one!!

[barocca]

i simply cannot see, from the stats, why japanese cav was repeatedly thrashing mongol cav

rememeber Mongol Yuan Imperial Light Cavalry have been disabled at your request.
I Think M_YIL would overpower J_JYC, and that perhaps M_YIL cost at 900k is not indicative of their capability.

THAT SAID, we dont necc WANT bang for buck as such, we want M to have cheaper, but less effective INFANTRY, and more expensive, but more capable heavy cav.??? ???

type cost men samurai Charge Mellee Defence Armour Honour armour pierce cav att cav def shield type mellee w shield shield bonus

Code:

type   cost   men   samurai   C   M   D   A   H   A/P   C/A   C/D   shield   mellee   bonus
M_Kes    400   11   ( YES )   5   4   6   5   8   NO     0      0   NONE      NO       0
J_Hat    400   11   ( YES )   5   4   6   5   8   NO     0      0   NONE      NO       0
M_YIC   1300   60   ( YES )   5   3   5   5   8   NO     0      0   CAV       YES      1
M_MHC   1100   60   ( YES )   4   4   2   6   10   NO    2      0   NONE      YES      1
J_JHC   1200   60   ( YES )   5   3   5   5   8   NO     0      0   NONE      NO       0
J_JNC    900   60   ( YES )   4   4   2   4   8   YES   -2      0   NONE      NO       0
M_YHA    500   60   ( YES )   2   0   1   3   6   NO     0      0   NONE      YES      1
M_MHA    700   60   ( YES )   3   0   1   2   8   YES    0      0   NONE      YES      1
J_JHA    600   60   ( YES )   3   0   1   3   6   NO     0      0   NONE      NO       0
M_YIL    900   60    ( NO )   4   2   1   3   8   NO     3      0   CAV       YES      1
M_STL    800   60    ( NO )   3   0   -1   2   6   NO    3      0   CAV       YES      1
J_JYC   1000   60   ( YES )   4   2   2   3   6   NO     4      0   NONE      NO       0


[barocca]

NOW

from the table above I'd like to match MHC and JNC

Code:

    C  M  D  A  H  A/P  C/A  C/D 
MHC  4  4  2  6  10  NO  2    0 
JNC  4  4  2  4  8  YES  -2    0 

points of note
JNC has a -2 attacking cav
MHC has a +2 attacking cav
JNC has armour pierce
MODIFIED STATS thus mecome

Code:

    C  M  D  A  H
MHC  4  6  2  2  10
JNC  4  2  2  4  8

MHC have att/def of 6/4
JNC have att/def of 2/6

MHC have a 1/1 chance of kill
JNC have a 1/2 chance of kill

[barocca]

now the same matchup on MHC and JYC

from the table above I'd like to match MHC and JNC

Code:

      C  M  D  A  H  A/P  C/A  C/D 
MHC  4  4  2  6  10  NO    2      0 
JYC  4  2  2  3  6  NO    4      0 

points of note
JYC has a +4 attacking cav
MHC has a +2 attacking cav
neither have armour pierce

MODIFIED STATS thus mecome

Code:

      C  M  D  A  H
MHC  4  6  2  6  10
JYC  4  6  2  3  6

MHC have att/def of 6/8
JYC have att/def of 6/5

MHC have a 6/5 chance of kill
JYC have a 3/4 chance of kill

In BOTH matchups, MHC vs JNC and JLC we must remember OTHER FACTORs can change things,
fatigue, win/loss ratio, flanks covered, outnumbered, outclassed, pushedback, crowded and so on.

[^HUN^]

Observation :
Missile comparison seemed closer, the Song Crossbows are less effective. I agree that adding the cheaper Ashi missile units will have an adverse effect. Maybe cheap Song Archers should be considered as well.

What factors were changed with infantry units?
9.04 saw Monks losing against Korean Guard (now Yuan Imperial)
Against Korean Swords (now Jian) it was closer. The match ups were good and the results more even, victorious Mongol units were severely depleted, down to around 20 or less.

9.06 Monks destroy these units with a loss of only 20 or less men. Not sure about other unit match ups because the Mongol infantry broke so easily in every battle.

I'd rather see the 9.04 infantry stats re-applied (plus the new Korean Guard) The Yuan units must be able to deliver if they are 1100 koku.

Cav performance is poor for the unit costs. The YIHC is not too bad, it's more or less a JHC clone, but MHC is weak and way over priced. It is not worth 1100.
With 9.04 infantry stats applied, the Japanese would not have the luxury of freeing up a load of units to help against enemy cav. This may help some way with cav balance but I still think the MHC needs something. It was priced at 1100 to prevent Mongols fielding strong cav and strong inf, we decided the Mongols should have an either/or choice.
I don't want to see MHC as just a NC clone, even with a slight stats adjustment. Their anti cav bonus is not enough to give them the superiority against Japanese cav they should have, which allows the other factors.

I'm beginning to think that applying armour piercing abilities is not such a good idea and perhaps it should be removed because there was a marked difference in gameplay, to the detriment of the Mongol army.

Conclusion : 9.04 gameplay was far superior.

[barocca]

ah - there were very minor changes between 0904 and 0906

(change log - Nagi, Monk, Ksword=YJian, Kpole=Ypole)
Naginata (+1 Def) (-1 Armour) (MORE vulnerable to missiles, but less fatigue effect)
Yuan Sword (+1 Morale) (Shield from large to small - effects missile defence only)
Yuan Pole (+1 Morale) (-1 Shield)
Monk - no changes

no other stats changed for these units.
armour piercing did not change
anti-cav did not change


Yuan polearms are a multi-role unit, with +2 +2 Anti Cav and Armour Pierce - Jap Cav are armoured dont forget!

[^HUN^]

WM v MHC plus two KS flanking. MHC routed with 11 men. Spears routed soon after. Monks were down to just 50 men.

[barocca]

WM vs MHC - can be fixed without weakening either of them
(I can make WM's lose)(i have the technology)(do YOU have 6million dollars???)
(BUT they will be slightly more efficient against other cav types - otherwise they become TOO sucky-sucky)
(between 15 and 30 MHC will survive a head on strike - WM's will not)
(tactical advice bit - you should NOT hit WM's head on with ANY cav EVER...they have a polearm)
(and they smell like camels... all those robes you see... no circulation... peeuuw!!)
SO
DO WM's need to always lose to Yuan Imperial Heavy Cavalry?
(personally i think NOT)


I WILL also activate the MHC shield and make it a +2 missile defence shield (no mellee)
(the Only +2 shield in the game)
this would represent (what i consider) to be the better armour against arrows that MHC would naturally have.
Seeing Mongols use archers quite a lot they would not want MHC to fall prey to their own tactic.
(they would have overlapping plates (scale mail) or something like it for man and horse, such would not be more efficient against katana/yari/nagi strikes which could slice up between the scales, but would deflect arrow fire which would mostly be coming "down" on the rider/horse - hence non-mellee +2 shield to represent that)

(YHC have +1 missile/mellee shield already - they will beat JHC by a small margin)
(Keshig also have a +1 Mi/Me shield and they will beat Hatamoto)
( - BOTH results are, in my opionion, as they shoud be)


EDIT - (another tactical advice bit) - users of MHC NEED to remember they are in the HEAVY ARMOUR CLASS, and must not RUN until they absolutely have to - ie for charges only. (or if they had the vindaloo...)
and should be rested as soon as possible afterwards... (or bathed if it was the vindaloo)

[Sponsored content]